tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post3440687748323912116..comments2023-09-06T01:08:43.420-07:00Comments on Wesleyan Arminian: A Problem for Open TheismKevin Jacksonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13472900037134045450noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-62664776376311098022011-04-07T16:21:04.433-07:002011-04-07T16:21:04.433-07:00Hi John B, thanks for the comment. I apologize for...Hi John B, thanks for the comment. I apologize for the slow response, I've moved the blog to Wordpress and don't check this blog often anymore. If you would like to discuss further, drop a comment <a href="http://wesleyanarminian.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/a-problem-for-open-theism/" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>.<br /><br />You said:<i>If our doing it is the cause of God's knowing it and we haven't done something yet then God can't know what we will do until we do it.</i><br /><br />That's true only if God exists in time. If he transcends time, he can see events before they happen.<br /><br />Regarding Judas, It was not a matter of Jesus "predicting" once Judas got up from the table. John records that Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray him (see <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:64,70-71&version=NIV" rel="nofollow">John 6:64;70-71</a>. See also <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2041:9&version=NIV" rel="nofollow">Psalm 41:9</a>, which foreshadows Judas betrayal.<br /><br />These passages makes the "prediction" theory untenable. Boyd recognizes this, which is why he says that some of the future is settled already. So we are left with two options:<br /><br />1) Jesus knew that Judas would betray him. Jesus' knowing didn't cause the behavior (the Arminian position).<br /><br />2) Jesus was coercive in his dealings with Judas. He knew what Judas would do because he caused it (Calvinism and Open Theism).Kevin Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472900037134045450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-33079150293149960742011-03-30T05:13:47.458-07:002011-03-30T05:13:47.458-07:00"God knows everything we will do, but his kno...<i>"God knows everything we will do, but his knowing is not the cause of us doing it. Rather, our doing it is the cause of his knowing it. His knowing is dependent on our actions."</i><br /><br />It is this kind of thinking which has moved me from Arminianism to Open Theism. If our doing it is the cause of God's knowing it and we haven't done something yet then God can't know what we will do until we do it. <br /><br />However, God does know each person's character perfectly and thus can predict with amazing but not with 100% accuracy how a given individual will respond in a given situation. 100% accuracy would mean that God foreknows what we will do before we do it, which is an idea Open Theism rejects. <br /><br />This perfect knowledge of Judas' and Peter's character is why Jesus could make the predictions he did about them. Up until the point Judas arose from the table, there was still a possibility that he would change his mind. I think that's part of the reason why Jesus gave Judas the most honored position at the table, because Jesus was hoping he could still win Judas back.John Bhttp://www.outthedoor.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-77894946316600206562010-07-31T18:34:12.979-07:002010-07-31T18:34:12.979-07:00Thanks Dan.Thanks Dan.Kevin Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472900037134045450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-20217371531908741122010-07-30T20:48:45.564-07:002010-07-30T20:48:45.564-07:00Bravo, Kevin. Ran into this post tonight while exp...Bravo, Kevin. Ran into this post tonight while exploring some things George Bryson said. Keep up the good work.Daniel Gracelynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-79979227200244915292009-11-22T21:36:06.118-08:002009-11-22T21:36:06.118-08:00Hi NonCalvinist, Thanks for stopping by. I have g...Hi NonCalvinist, Thanks for stopping by. I have gone through a similar process myself.Kevin Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472900037134045450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-4643205245786381122009-11-22T18:39:31.133-08:002009-11-22T18:39:31.133-08:00Great post on this. These are my thoughts exactly...Great post on this. These are my thoughts exactly. I have a very close friend and brother in Christ who is an Open Theist. After hearing about it from him for quite some time, reading books for it and against it, I have to, in good conscience, affirm exhaustive foreknowledge...NonCalvinisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08933632592168678508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-1077318614050608652009-10-31T08:08:42.157-07:002009-10-31T08:08:42.157-07:00Kevin,
Nice post! I think GB says Judas' ear...Kevin,<br /><br />Nice post! I think GB says Judas' earlier free choices predetermined his betrayal. It's sometimes called 'character hardening'. But the betrayal was foretold back in OT times. Further, Judas is held responsible for that specific event. If it hadn't been for the prophecy, there's no way they would be saying Judas wasn't free. Not only that, but Daniel and Christ foretell the rise and fall of nations that involve innumerable free choices. There's just no getting around the biblical witness that God knows what people will choose in the future.<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-45694894768137223932009-10-30T07:08:26.489-07:002009-10-30T07:08:26.489-07:00Kevin,
"You can be both" I hope so, I do...Kevin,<br />"You can be both" I hope so, I don't want to be a walking contradiction. Your point here does, however, call into question the calvinistic molinism growing in popularity (ala terrance tiessen).Ryan Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04459071331245718029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-36881007856718794452009-10-30T05:49:32.067-07:002009-10-30T05:49:32.067-07:00Kevin,
I am still wrestling through how to speak ...Kevin,<br /><br />I am still wrestling through how to speak what I know to be true after many years of Calvinist conditioning. This post was excellent expecially this simple summary statement you wrote.<br /><br />"God knows everything we will do, but his knowing is not the cause of us doing it. Rather, our doing it is the cause of his knowing it."<br /><br />Thanks for the clear post.<br /><br />Bob BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-59670455297798219332009-10-29T17:52:53.064-07:002009-10-29T17:52:53.064-07:00Hi Ryan, good point. Both Arminians and Molinists...Hi Ryan, good point. Both Arminians and Molinists (and one can be both) affirm that God knowing the future does not make it necessary.<br /><br />Onesimus, thanks for the link. His explanation is excellent. I like his coin example.Kevin Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472900037134045450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-29761391388468747382009-10-29T14:50:47.791-07:002009-10-29T14:50:47.791-07:00The best explanation I have seen of God’s foreknow...The best explanation I have seen of God’s foreknowledge and man’s free will came in a couple of articles by David Servant.<br /><br />Links can be found on my blog here:<br /><br /><a href="http://onefiles.blogspot.com/2009/04/gods-foreknowledge-and-mans-free-will.html" rel="nofollow">http://onefiles.blogspot.com/2009/04/gods-foreknowledge-and-mans-free-will.html</a><br /><br />Regarding Ryan Carter's comment about "two seemingly opposed views share this basic assumption"... <br /><br />I see a similar situation between Calvinism and Universalism. Both of these totally different theologies share the belief that salvation is given to those who have never desired or sought it.Onesimushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11413061573637313957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2159101388355001570.post-52725710678971656212009-10-29T12:24:10.602-07:002009-10-29T12:24:10.602-07:00It is funny that two seemingly opposed views share...It is funny that two seemingly opposed views share this basic assumption. I know many Arminians are opposed to Molinism. But I think in the same way you describe here, they are alike.Ryan Carterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04459071331245718029noreply@blogger.com